Curse

BahamutKaiser · Mar 24, 2007, 03:03 AM // 03:03

The wole point of regen and degen is to overlap with damage or healing, not replace them. We can use healing skills which heal 60 health for 5 energy, or we can use a regen skill which offers approx 16-18 heath per second for 10 seconds offering more healing over a period of time, or we can do both to conserve energy and stack more healing over a smaller period of time.

Works perfectly fine IMO, if you want something besides regen and degen, try something else, this works properly.

MithranArkanere · Mar 24, 2007, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Guy

The point of Degen or Regen is to make the output dmg become efficient. Anyone who play monk would understand degen is a nightmare to heal through. By using degen, it's a sure dmg over the period of time (unless being taken out.) Combine this slowly dmg and direct dmg, we can create average output OVER the period of time higher than just using Degen or just using direct dmg. Degen can not be protected unless using Healing breeze which noone ever use unless in 55 monk! Some of the PvE monks use healing breeze as a slow heal and combine this with direct heal to make the average healing output higher! That's my opinion about Degen/Regen.

These are good/bad things that can happen in my opinion:

Good:
- It will eliminate those who solo with their 55 monks.
- Give better use for regen skills.

Bad:
- Prot spirit will be less effective and maybe will not be used anymore (Same for shelter)
- + Health amour is gone. No more use!
- DP out target become meaningless since degen does not do anything good.
- Make more lag as dmg will be shown every sec
- Frenzy is gone because this is dmg per sec mean double OMG.

Well if it was with % of health, and not with that bad ida of more pips:

- Would kill for good the 55 soloers... but I'm sure there will borth Greth's Balance ones with regend and endure pain to have huge ammounts of HP, XD.
- Not only better use of regeb, but also more logic, since creatures with more HP (and thus more level) regen more. Making the level a tiny bit more important... no more lvl13 Assassins entering Vizunah relying on shadow refuge.

- + Health amour won't go, since the more HP you have, the more you regen.
- DP would be worst, since the more you have the less effective is the regen on you.
- Don't know about the lag... this would of course need more calculations...

Hm... so far only the change to regen/degen per % of health seem to be of any good.

The other ideas do not seem plausible at all.

Div · Mar 25, 2007, 04:59 PM // 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

For people who think the original idea sucks and would break the game... think about it.

-10 degen would be 5% health a second. It would take TWENTY SECONDS to kill you at max degen. Honestly, if you are under -10 degen for twenty whole seconds, you deserve to die (of course, this is disregarding both damage and heals, but according to some, "all anybody will ever do is degen"). Compare this to a spike which will kill you in 1 second. Hmm, what's more powerful, a kill in 20 seconds or a kill in 1 second? So again... how is this overpowered?

I repeat: The day they change degen to 0.5% health per pip (5% when 10 pips) is the day that I will kill mallyx in 20 seconds

And comparing spike damage with degen just shows how little you understand about the mechanics of this game. Don't make PvP comparisons if your perception of PvP is from RA, AB, a GvG you watched 4 months ago, and the two times you got rolled in UW running a wammo against iA a year ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

This entire thread is one monumental fail.

Of course. Too many people that don't even read the whole thread or don't know what they're talking about are giving their opinions...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

- + Health amour won't go, since the more HP you have, the more you regen.
- DP would be worst, since the more you have the less effective is the regen on you.

Hm... so far only the change to regen/degen per % of health seem to be of any good.

The other ideas do not seem plausible at all.

+Health armor would completely go down the drain, as it is usually the case that you have degen on you as opposed to regen, especially in PvP. +Health armor has never been as popular in PvE because it's all about getting maximum efficiency dealing damage, so +Energy is generally preferred over +Health.

Again, people wouldn't mind having DP against a pure degen build, because degen is much more prevalent than regen, and with DP, degen becomes much less effective. In fact, in PvP, the only regen skills I commonly see are the SoR monks and the Healing breeze flaggers, whereas there is an insane amount of degen. Even in PvE, degen is much more common, and if your team is really DP'ed there's a problem with the group anyways...

I repeat, changing degen to % is not going to work out, for the reasons I've given before. I've yet to have anyone refute any of my arguments despite refuting many arguments from the other side, so I'll maintain my belief that this proposal is utterly idiotic, and that there is no more intelligent discussion to be had in this thread...

MithranArkanere · Mar 28, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Hm... so I'm right. THey should change it to %.

The main and more important issue is to kill the 55characters, thus leaving a 480HP lvl 20 character regen almost the same, and that would do that.

Coran Ironclaw · Mar 28, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The main and more important issue is to kill the 55characters,

If all you care is to kill 55, you really are going in a very complicated way. There are many other more simple tweaks to do that,
The tweak shouldnt be on regeneration but on [protective spirit] which is the essential part of 55.

One example could be the same they did to spirit bond, it only affect the next 10 attacks-spells, and 55 is dead.

but i /not sign that because it is not really needed.
55 is one of the oldest builds in the game, If anet would be interested on killing it, that would had been done looong time ago.

Series · Mar 28, 2007, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I repeat: The day they change degen to 0.5% health per pip (5% when 10 pips) is the day that I will kill mallyx in 20 seconds

And comparing spike damage with degen just shows how little you understand about the mechanics of this game. Don't make PvP comparisons if your perception of PvP is from RA, AB, a GvG you watched 4 months ago, and the two times you got rolled in UW running a wammo against iA a year ago.

Oh no! The degen change will make a PvE boss die faster? ZOMG, PvE is so important to consider when thinking about skill changes. When discussing how a skill change will effect PvE, it shows how little YOU understand about the game. This has nothing to do with PvE vs. PvP. It's a fact that PvP is more important than PvE when it comes to skill changes.

And I love how you think I learned about spiking in "RA, AB, a GvG you watched 4 months ago". BRB, I gotta go run a spike in RA!

Seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Of course. Too many people that don't even read the whole thread or don't know what they're talking about are giving their opinions...

You mean like you?

Chris Blackstar · Mar 28, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

As we all know, each pip of regen/degen is equal to 2 health per second, and there is an imposed 10 pips max. As it is now, regen and degen skills are generally written off as fairly worthless, as are conditions that cause degen. Why is this? Well, at 10 pips, we're only talking 20 health per second. On the surface, it sounds good, but 10 pips is generally difficult to pull off, and in the end can be easily outhealed/outdamaged.

There is also a handful of issues where the regen/degen is too powerful. How, you ask? Simply put, instances where the target has much less than maximum health. This is seen in the 55 monk build, and with skills like Aura of the Lich. In those instances, both regen and degen can be the literal line between life and death, thus, overpowered.

It is often suggested to raise the cap from 10 pips to say, 15-20. This is too much. It's often proven that it would cause regen/degen causing skills, and conditions to become way too powerful. I agree.

I suggest to you all, a solution: each pip of regen/degen implies .5% of your current max health per second, instead of a constant 2hp/second. At 10 max pips, that would equal 5% of your current max health per second. This would mean that no matter the situation, regen/degen will cause consistent damage/healing, no matter the target's current max health.

What do you guys think? What kind of rammifications would something like this cause? Am I missing a perhaps bigger picture with degen/regen? Does it even need fixing?

EDIT: Added in max between "current" and "health", to show what I really meant

/not signed

Twice you mention 55 monks, I believe your only reasoning for this changes is so your 55 build can farm freely in areas that have degen opponents. Live with the current system, because those of us who prefer not to use low HP builds would suffer in the end with a higher hp build, thus giving low hp builds an overpowered advantage.

tenshi_strife · Mar 28, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

THIS AFFECTS REGEN TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO so 55 would be boned omfg 55ing requires regen and if regen is % based then THEY WOULD DIE this is not a 55 buff this would kill 55ers SO STOP SAYING THAT, ok every get off the subject of 55ers, WHO CARES ABOUT 55ERS its an OK farming build that has existed for forever, and get down to the real issues PVP. i still have not seen any post that would make me change my mind

FelixCarter · Mar 29, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

THIS AFFECTS REGEN TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO so 55 would be boned omfg 55ing requires regen and if regen is % based then THEY WOULD DIE this is not a 55 buff this would kill 55ers SO STOP SAYING THAT, ok every get off the subject of 55ers, WHO CARES ABOUT 55ERS its an OK farming build that has existed for forever, and get down to the real issues PVP. i still have not seen any post that would make me change my mind

I thought 55s were already dead... My bad.

As for PvP, it would be pretty much the same as it is now. I'll even quote Mithran's calculations:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

I like it. With the 10 pips... that would be 5% of total health per second...
For a lvl 20 ... 480*5/100 that is 24. Not very far from the 20 of the current system...

In the end, such an update would only hurt 55 Monks (I'm pretty sure O.o). New people playing PvE would have it much easier in the beginning of the game. PvP, like I already said, would be "unaffected" to an extent. the only difference is 4 points, after all.

tenshi_strife · Mar 29, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

yea its not a large change but healing breeze and other regen skills are worthless on high health tanks, also how i see regen and degen is by %, i mean if your bleeding just cause your stronger it doesnt suck, that makes no sense in a logical view. but thats just me

MithranArkanere · Mar 29, 2007, 03:58 PM // 15:58

It's commons sense, the more health you have, the faster you regen.
Think of it like 'constitution' in D&D, the greter your overall health is, the easier and faster you recover from wounds.

The current regens system does exactly the opposite, the less HP you have, the faster you recover your health with the same number of regen pips.

The downside from superior runes and other -HP items should be a real downside, not a good way to trick the game to become almost immune to cheap monster builds.

Div · Mar 29, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series

Oh no! The degen change will make a PvE boss die faster? ZOMG, PvE is so important to consider when thinking about skill changes. When discussing how a skill change will effect PvE, it shows how little YOU understand about the game. This has nothing to do with PvE vs. PvP. It's a fact that PvP is more important than PvE when it comes to skill changes.

Since you're probably twelve and like to turn a legitimate argument into personal attacks, I'll show you how little you know about this game.

I'm guessing you weren't around when they changed spirit bond? Rend enchantments? Just got the game for 2 weeks? Of course PvP takes precedence over PvE when skill balance is concerned, but they're not going to break the entire PvE game by changing a game mechanic. How little I understand about the game? What makes you claim that? Is your bambi making you a little too overconfident? And saying that they don't skill balance for PvE as well just shows that you never even paid attention to the history of skill balances and have no experience in PvE, so you shouldn't argue on that behalf.

MithranArkanere · Mar 29, 2007, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Game mechanic are not definite, not even yet.
They already removed the evade mechanic, didn't they?

Well... the % change would actually make Bosses harder, since they have more health.

Glint would be hell, since she is presumed to have over nine thou... ahem... sorry... too much 300 silly videos... I was going to say over 6000 HP.

With such a change, the 7 regen pips Crystal Hibernation grants her would have to be reduced to keep the same difficulty.

pazu · Mar 29, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I suggest to you all, a solution: each pip of regen/degen implies .5% of your current max health per second, instead of a constant 2hp/second.

If health % is calculated before applying -health items, then it's a great idea. This is to keep people from getting rewarded for a lower max health, like the infamous 55 monks.

Age · Mar 29, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I haven't read the first post or entire thread in full but I say No and to kill off any farming builds that players have fun with No again as this game would get really boring fast.There is already away you help those in need of regen to prevent degen.

tenshi_strife · Mar 29, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by pazu

If health % is calculated before applying -health items, then it's a great idea. This is to keep people from getting rewarded for a lower max health, like the infamous 55 monks.

um wtf -health would HURT you for regen......... so it would be applied after, actually this would reward players for having high health which i think would be great cause way to many players stack runes cause currently its got not much of a downside

MithranArkanere · Mar 30, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenshi_strife

um wtf -health would HURT you for regen......... so it would be applied after, actually this would reward players for having high health which i think would be great cause way to many players stack runes cause currently its got not much of a downside

Yup, that is exactly what I've been telling all the time.

Currently, -75 energy is not a big problem when you are a Necro, Ele, or Monk...
Even a warrior will get nice bonuses by using Endure pain with +3, more than enough.

Increasing the penalization would have no point. But this small behaviour change would make that penalization work more logically.

=DNC=Trucker · Mar 30, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

/notsigned

If you have low health, you have low health!